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Economic System Vulgar and otherwise pointless remarks will be removed daily. |
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| This board was established to "work on" a blueprint, outlining a redesign of the entire economic system. In this section points of agreement will be listed. 1] Because this redesign can only be implemented nationally, very strict rules will have to be established regarding foreign ownership of domestic assets.(to be expanded) 2] Wages: Income from labor or assets over 12 times the established federal minim wage (annualized 40hr/52 week, year) will be subject to a 100% federal tax. Pending: Educational Requirements 3]... | ||
| Marcus Lewis | | | E-mail Atlanta, GA USA -
The US economy is simply put a capitalistic entity with socialist overtones. The current situation, though complex in solution, is simple in terms of origination. The .Com falsehood invited players (investers) into a game they most were never equiped to play. Free money for those prudent to create the hysteria of the "new economy", while the the late comers found that there hopes of fat pockets came with holes already in place. The constant back and forth sway of the US economy is likened unto a ship a sea. Too much weight on one side and the sway because violent. A sudden overcompensation causes even more problems. 1) Remove the capital gains tax ... period. Why do I need to find investments that will return over 20% just to break-even. That sucks!2) Hold the government accountible for their overspending and subsequent over taxing ( or vice versa ). Unfortunately, democracy gives equal voting rights to every citizen and the majority of us get our opinions from thirty second sound bites.3) We need to immediately find solutions to the problem of the new slave trade. The US provides work visas for migrant workers while the US can't sell a Chevy to any foreign land. How can you attempt to benefit by producing cheaply when the buyers need those jobs.4) Education is key to the masses finally getting control of the country that we built. The working stiff is seemingly ripped off at every angle. | ||
| pobre latino USA -
USA's growth is (was?) fuelled by illegal money coming in from poor countries like argentina, brazil, mexico, india and russia. the elite in these countries tried to store their (illegally acquired?) money in us, especially as the us does not tax foreigner's capital gains etc. This led to a strange situation where: US imports far exceed exports, but dollar remains strong. Obviously, a lot of people from not so stable countries are preferring dollar to their own currencies.The debt level, energy consumption and housing costs per capita in US metros are also going beyond sustainable level. (Just try buying a habitable house in a crime free neighbourhood in the NYC etc... at current prices, your grandchildren will possible finish paying it)This spending splurge is (was?) obiously fuelled by the stock market, which in turn was fuelled by foreign money running after non-taxable gains in the US equity markets... and also poor latinos providing cheap labour for next to nothing (the secret behind "rising" productivity)Question- Can it last forever? Can the US import all the goods and not produce anything? Can the US allow the entire Latino population to immigrate to the US illegally and give them an amnesty every 5 years? Doubtful. IMHO, the US' party is over. | ||
| seaforest | | |WebSite | | | E-mail bj, cn -
Friend,help me to find if the program is rationalize? I expect your answer,thanks your time and warm | ||
| Tony M Post 7 USA - A lot here to think over. Off the top of my head, Something I think was under emphasized is the world wage presser that was caused by free trade International trade yes, free trade no { strictly speaking there is very little under most technical deffinitions}. There are many strictly interanational issues we can not address within this topic. However, if retrun rate regulation was inadiquate to balancing US trade by equalizing financial markets, then a 1-1 trade bank would help. also requiring US companies operating overseas to pay based on american scales would result in most US bussinesses becoming strictly domestic and would cure our moral delema. likewise foriegn companies operating in america should pay rates consistant with the home country if they are higher than here. { this would put an end to the Nike’s of america, germany, and japan} do we want to expand and formalize any of this language?
and the "advancement" to employability of the third world. As I see it, Japan succeeded when it undercut our workers, and failed when its workers were undercut by the rest of Asia.
Not true on both counts. Japans success was largly based on in order of priority Technological progress and an abundance of old money (established international companies) has given us temporary advantages and the illusion of prosperity. Our illusion of prosperity is based on the sale of capital assets to foriengers mostly rich. But the ugly exploitation that is the foundation of the "new economy" will get us also in the end. Gary Theskywillbefalling Gary, I could tackle this one from purely an ecopolitical perspective or I could get religious on you-- in any event you are right. I know you do not believe but when we are reduced to a one world government and you are required to accept the number in order to buy or sell don’t take it. at best you will enjoy only three 1/2 years of peace before everything goes very very very bad.
I will be replying to the previous post shortly sorry for the delay
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| Tony M USA -
Post 6 {I didn't count]
from This point forward I am going to start numbering my posts for reference. this format while good is difficult for multi-level, multi-segment topics. please number likewise for my small brain. PS I will be responding to your post within 36hrs. The following was taken from previous conversations please forgive the format: ( if you read enough you actually get to data, economic plan for national trade bank not included ) I am going to ignore the Federal Reserves questionalable creation. I am also "for the sake of arguement" going to asume that the fed only has the economy at heart...... THE PROBLEM ... the federal reserves only method for controlling inflation is economically destructive to both employers and employees. when the fed increases interests rates to "control inflation" it both increases the cost of capital, reduces demand, and upwardly shifts the philip's curve. The shift in the philips curve, has contributed to a progressively less trained work force than otherwise, wich has led to todays low wages even as many high pay jobs go unfilled. "Capital cost and domestic economic potencial"
The effects of high interst rates on international trade is a topic to lengthy for this post. The overall result however is a net inflow of foriegn capital investment "foriegn ownership of american" and merchandise inflow. Americans companies are put at a real disadvantage both in international and domestic markets. We end up importing world unemployment and dinamic disadvantages resulting in unemployment or lower than otherwise wages, R&D, and equipment investment at home. Wealth does not create demand, income and ( in the short run) credit does. The wealth effect is a reflection of an overestimation of future real income VS expenses influencing people to spend today depleting savings. even investments are made on credit. I think that credit should be illegal for purchasing financial investments and phased out for consumer spending. the wealth effect would be reduced by reducing the expectancy of high future gains. this can be done in nondestructive ways. America is economically uncompetitive in international trade. This can be stated because American has run a trade deficit every year for almost two decades resulting in a trade debt that as a percent of GDP has also grown every year. In 1982 America was the worlds largest net creditor with net foreign assets of 152 billion dollars representing almost 70 years of accumulaton. By the spring of 1985 America had no net international assets. By 1986 America became the worlds largest net debtor with over 100 billion in debt. by 1997 America was a gross debtor for 2.8 trillion in long term sicurities plus additonal debt in demand deposits and other ownerships. by 1997 amercica was a net debtor for 1.4 trillion in long term sicurities debt (stocks, bonds, and treassuries) plus additonal debt in demand deposits and other ownerships. by 1999 I estimate we became a gross bebtor for 3.0 trillion and a net debtor for 1.6 trillion not including demand deposit and non sicurities ownerships held by foreinger. In 1999 gross american holdings of foriegn assets accually fell by 10 billion.***** The origin of the trade imbalance was caused by many factors with monetary and fiscal policy being key. America has controlled inflation by restricting money growth. The Government has also practiced deficit spending for both keynesian and political reasons. By the 80's, even 70's to a lesser extent, government credit demand and monitary restriction had produced high real interest rates relitive to the rest of the industrialized world. The High real interest rates looked attractive to forieng investors. As they started moving their funds into the united states they had to sell their currencies to purchase dollars. the relitive demand for the dollar pushed it's exchange value up against other currencies. As a result American products became expensive to foreigners as foreign products became cheap to Americans. The outward flow of dollars from the trade deficit was matched by an inward flow into the capital market primarily to finance the federal debt. In the 90's the real rates of return adjusted for percieved risk in other global markets kept funds flowing to American capital markets even though the rates were lower than in the 80's.***** sence 1997 explosive evaluation growth in the stock market and a small decline in the national debt has caused flows to the capital market to change from debt investments to equities investments. While the causes within the capital market are changing the negative impact on trade deficit continues. In 1997 foreigner held only 6.3% of US stocks if all their american sicurities holdings were in stocks it would have been 19.6%. while the current figure is probable well below 19.6%, this will change especially when the stock markets explosive growth stabilizes. There are six problems with the current trade and capital market imbalance we have with the rest of the world. a) America's real rate of return adjusted for percieved risk is no longer greater than other markets. Third, it harms american industry. The high dollar makes foriegn products relitively cheapers. Many american companies must lower product prices or loose market share. Either way these companies have less revenue per unit sale for profit, capital investment, and R&D than they would with an exchange rate at purchasing price parity. The forieng competition ends up with more revenues for profit, capital investment and R&D than they would have at purchasing price parity. As profit has always come first in america the big cuts are in capital and R&D with the long term consequences of reduced productivity growth, income growth, and a slow loss of cutting edge technology and competitiveness. This was clearly seen in the 80's but with Japans cyclical ressession / mini depression and the cartelization of trade in some industries of Europe we have had a limited and temporary break. Fourth, our employers will have foreiners at heart. In 1997 foriengers already owned 41% of the voting shares of the 100 largest companies in america. forieng interests will gain control over key industries in america. What loyalty american companies do have for america will be gone. At that point we should not be suprised to see corporations move key occupations, proccesses, activities, even headquarters out of the united states. these corporations will tend to have philosophies, practices, and interests that we may find very unamerican even antiamerican. When the toyoto - general motors joint venture started biulding cars we gained factory jobs but the managerial, engineering, R&D, and design work was done in Japan. Many European investors and corporations as a matter of practice do not believe in capitalistic market competition. fith, when the capital inflows stop america's
standard of living will fall. Our standard of living will fall equal to our yearly trade deficit (n1) plus the interests on over 1.6 trillion in net foriegn investments (n2) plus American investments to displace or balance foriegn investments in america (n3). our standard of living will also fall as imports become more expensive as the dollar falls in value. Sixth, it reflects a great lost opertunity and obligation to take care of ourselves. By not saving we are not taking care of our own retirement, housings,general purchasing, and insurance needs, et. By not saving we are givings up the very means to prosperity. The lower and middle class will become more dependant on government programs and direct assistance and the american rich will disappear as the foriegn rich aquire their assets. | ||
| Tony M USA -
Economic data to follow likely in two days.
opps. you may start point (3) im not quite ready. Getting back to the task of defining agreeable "plank" language. Regarding inheritance: Tabled. | ||
| Tony M USA - 1a] "Because this redesign can only be implemented nationally very strict rules will have to be established regarding foreign ownership of domestic assets." {agree fully would you like some trade and forieng asset data concerning this subject?} 1b)Likewise, transfers of wealth (inheritance) will have to be suspended for the period (generation) of implementation. {lets table this one for later consideration -- If you think we still need it after pionts (2) and (4) of original post are expanded then we can debate it -- I'll flip a quarter :) 2a] wages: Income from labor or assets over 12 times the established federal minim wage (annualized 40hr/52 week, year) will be subject to a 100% federal tax. { now thats one way to get compliance :), agreed } 2b)I removed the Ph.D./CEO stuff as I see no reason to make such distinctions.{ there were several purposes to the structure provided -- (1) in america practically all CEO's are bussiness, law, marketing, finance... in japan most are design or production engineers ... consider the social and technological consiquences long run..wich have the greater value? (2) we have to few teachers, skilled trades, and engineers yet many go into supervisory / administration positions to early in their carriers.( this is partly a matter of pay and partly of trying to get into management fast track -- we need a slower track agian like japan ) pay is also a messure of respect.. should we put greater respect with lawers or doctors and engineers.. the respected occupations will draw the students. capping suppervisory pay clearly helps define the scale for all other occupations. Is a basketball player worth as much as the best R&D scientist? It is not my goal to define the pay rate of every job and person. but by picking some socially and economically significant points to define limits could help the entire system. I can provide references to books including pages in "the zero sum solution" by lester C throu if you want some general data on comparitive income distrobutions ect. {will wait for reply} (Add)
Gary Iwonderifwewillgetpastone: we can set "one" aside until at least (6) I suggest making retitled (1b) dependant on results for middle class.
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| Gary USA - 1] Because this redesign can only be implemented nationally very strict rules will have to be established regarding foreign ownership of domestic assets. Likewise, transfers of wealth (inheritance) will have to be suspended for the period (generation) of implementation. 2] wages: Income from labor or assets over 12 times the established federal minim wage (annualized 40hr/52 week, year) will be subject to a 100% federal tax.
I removed the Ph.D./CEO stuff as I see no reason to make such distinctions. Add/subtract/or agree, and move us on to #3 | ||
| Tony M USA -
I will gladly make a post in death taxes. I think we should stick with the big picture. granted, incremental change can improve the current tax system, but I find the basic system flawed and there are related issues that can not be addressed by taxation. you may expand on one of your points or we could expand on my point (4) given that dependant point (2) was assumed implemented. they also represent the most hotly debated points of my idea. | ||
| Tony M USA -
Gary: 2) No capitalist would have me for the income I would transfer to the working class and the insentives I would give the working class to aquire capital ownership as a means to financial independance from the rich and government.
I believe that taxes should be simple, and eventually small and flat. however, Like you I have a socialist streak a mile long.
3) Consumer credit should be phased out, an optional and unlimited tax deferment program should be available for investment savings that has no government mandates or penalties conserning use or withdraw. Otherwise the tax code should have no deductions, exemptions, credits, ect. taxes should be levied against indivuals making no recognition of marital status. 4) government should not micromanage wages or labor negotiations but should set general standards for maximume compensations. example: 1) fix a minimume wage at 1X. 2) maximume supervisory compensation at 5X. 3) maximume humanities CEO at 8X 4) maximume sciences degree CEO at 10X. 5) max General PH.D at 8X 6) shortage PH.D. at 12X, maximume all classes 12X. Likewise government should discurage negative socail paterns. one example would be to require all general contracts labor and supply to be renegotiated at the same time as they are in Japan. The above indirect-goverment-support messures I think would greatly reduce the need for direct-government-support such as wealfare and the influence of the rich without encurageing the direct confiscation of property or the futile system of progressive taxes. It would also be inducive to very low inflation. As to wealfare in general I am a strong believer in personal responsability in general, that private insureance is great and that charity and humility is much better than a militant wealfare mentality. The above should also promote balanced trade by reversing international financial differencials. 5) in all non sunset industries that are not extremely economy of scale sensitive I beleive in competition. breaking up companies is a good idea in general and the legal process should be made less expensive and time consumming. 6) in apparent but nat actual contradiction to point (5) I support using government matching funds {limit 50%) to get seperate companies within an industry to conduct joint R&D with cross licencing agreements.
this is not exaustive or well defined but it is a start. I think this should give you a good idea on my opinions of all your points except 5 & 6. | ||
| Tony M USA -
Gary -- Im ready to pick a fight :) what is yor opinion on federal taxes -- all federal taxes inc soc, med ect.
1. I believe in the redistribution of wealth, as I see no ethical justice or beauty in a system that gives one group of "horses" nothing but carrots, and another group nothing but the whip.
This should be enough for starters.
-Gary Socialistideals
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| Gary | | | E-mail USA -
Got something to say about this web site, me , you, them... or a subject suggestion this is the place to “stick it”. | ||